If the season ended right now, do you think Mangini deserves to be fired?

Mangini came in to put in place a new system with a new roster. He had to blow up the old one to do it. Its unfortunate how bad the browns have been this year, but that's what happens when you blow up a team. To fire him now, just as his system is starting to come together would be a mistake. We would just have to watch as the new coach comes in and blows up Mangini's system and puts up double digits in the loss column.

Wow, Pup you are going to need another wagon. I am still not getting on and stand alone in my fire vote.

I didn't really like the hire when it happened, and yes I am really, really not happy with they way the season has turned out(minus the shittsburgh victory), I do believe that more time is needed to really judge the way this team is going under his leadership. I believe the addition of a GM who knows what he is doing, along with 11 picks next year, should really help out.

The point is moot. We need a football czar at the top with the ability and power to pick his own guy. If it's Mangini, fine.

If we don't hire that guy then...i guess we are well and truly fucked.

Are you saying my vote doesn't count? How dare you!

I voted for keeping him. But, having only 2 options isn't really fair. Had Kokinis stayed, I'd have been in favor of getting rid of the whole lot of them. Currently, if it was up to me in the situation we're in, I'd be doing my best to find a quality GM and President. If the guy I hired wanted to fire Mangini (or keep him), that would be the answer to your question. I think the team has played much better since Quinn came back, but this team doesn't advance to being good without a GM who knows what he's doing. If that GM wants to bring in someone different to run the team, I've got no problem with that. But, if that GM wants to keep Mangini (and not being forced into doing it by Jammies), then that's fine with me as well.

It's really all about getting an established GM in here. I don't like Mangini personally, but if a GM with experience comes here and signs off on it...let's just say that the last few weeks have been encouraging enough to give him another year. And if he gets canned after this year, I don't think many Browns fans are going to lose any sleep. It's all on whomever becomes the GM, and I will blindly support that decision so long as the GM has a proven track record.

This, this, one thousand times this

Well, I wouldn't say it doesn't count, but I'd imagine the vote has to be around 85-90% for Lerner to weight it heavily in his decision.

For the record, I voted to fire his ass.

Toast. Extra crispy.

Too many positive projections based on one game due to the emotional value of the opponent.

The man/disingenuous brown nose little prick, has fucked it up since Day 1

Call again in 3 weeks but till then, 2-11 is 2-11 and thats not good enuff with the level of play provided.....neither is 5-11 if they luck their way thru the back door

2 cent

He deserves more time. But ask me about the OC...

Give him another year ,ONLY to coach! ...Keep him away from the draft room!!!!!

and ONLY if he gets rid of Daboll!

+1

I would only add the new czar would have all the facts on what went down and why, if Mangini was a dipshit in all this, fire his ass. If he was only part of the problem and will work as HC and as part of the team to bring the team back to Champions, then Im ok with his coming back (to coach only)

The new guys call.

Wow, that's some afterglow from the Stillers game.

Since this poll expressly asked me and not the next HMFIC, I pushed the fire button. Yeah, beating the Inbred is nice. However, to paraphrase JB last year, 4-12 begets 2-11. Destroying the village to save it wasn't what he promised last January. One game does not make up for the other twelve disasters.

That this season's been as much of a fustercluck as it is rests on two men's shoulders and we can't fire Jammies. So I'll take the second option. Fire Mangini.

(We'll see if the Walrus does.)

Maybe if enough people vote you can forward the results to Dawg Pound Mike and he can deliver It to Lerner in their next meeting.

As far as should he stay or should he go, I voted to give him another year, but ultimately it all comes down to who they hire as "czar". And now I cannot get that stupid song out of my head... If I stay there will be trouble, if I go it will be double...

The premise, which I apparently did not state clearly enough, was that YOU were the new football czar.

"If Mangini's fate was in your hands..."

The evidence at your disposal is what you know right now. Record, how he has gone about things, recent games, etc.



FWIW, I voted to keep him because I'm actually curious to see where this is going. Jesu Christi, Crennel got 3 years and he seemed like a doofus from Day 1.

Bottom line, can Mangini co-exist with "serious, credible" football people that he will have no say in picking and has never worked with before?

Way I'm seeing this, Lerner brings in a Czar. Czar has three people reporting to him. Mangini, GM, and Mike Keenan. Just like in Miami. Parcells as the Czar. Jeff Ireland as GM, Sparano, and their CEO.

Say it's Holmgren, just for arguments sake. Say he brings in Ruskell, again, for arguments sake. Can Mangini, a dominant strong personality ... a my way or the highway guy, can he co-exist with two guys like that? Remember, Belichick picked Pioli himself. He was his Kokinis.

Goes one of two ways. I got it as a dead coin flip right now.

1. Mangini cowers at the feet of the new czar, terrified of the ramifications of being fired twice in less than 12 months and the impact that would have on his ability to get another head coaching job. Czar agrees to keep Mangini.

2. Mangini says he will cower. Czar gets feeling he may initially, but is incapable of not being able to do all the shopping as the guy that cooks. Mangini gets let go. Czar brings in his own guy.

I don't really mind this option.

I think Mangini as a coach is not bad (despite the 2-11 record), I've seen at the very least starting with the Detroit game a better looking football team, especially from the defensive side of things.

It's Mangini the HMFIC of everything that scares me

Offensivly? Terrible. Daboll should not have that gig. BUT, I'm assuming that he'll soon be gone, and Mangini could be encouraged to bring in one of Holmgren's guys.

That all said, something tells me if Holmgren gets the gig, Mangini will be gone.

C. Talk to him and then corroborate or refute his analysis of what is really going on. Then move. Any other answer and Randy screwed the pooch . Again.

What JB said.

I am in favor of him staying, because I think the guy can coach.

But if the Czar wants his own cat...well he is the czar.

If "Holmgren" sits down with Eric and they talk football and "Holmgren" says, "Christ, Pup is an idiot, this guy doesn't know being a head coach from being towel boy" then have him be gone. And get Chucky or Mooch (from the be careful what you wish for file) in town and make it better.

If they sit down and are immediately on the same page, what are ya'll gonna do?

Mangini didn't pick the front office guys in New York, did he? Seems he got along okay with them until they fired him. But I don't think that was because he wanted too much power. It's helpful to remember that the reason for Kokinis being hand-picked by Mangini was because Lerner wanted someone as GM that would "work well" with his head coach (unlike Savage/Crennel). Lerner picked Kokinis against the advice of Ernie Accorsi, not because Mangini forced him to, but because Lerner chose to do it. There's no reason I'm aware of to think that if Lerner had picked someone else as GM Mangini wouldn't have been able or willing to work with him; at least nothing in his stint with the Jets suggest that (again, as far as I'm aware).

We have so little information - leaked or not - about the Kokinis and O'Brien situation and what led to their leaving our organization, that I think it's dangerous to try to draw any conclusions from that incident. The question of whether Mangini stays or goes isn't focused on Mangini, IMhO, it's focused on whoever the new President/GM is and what he wants to do. If he wants to keep Mangini around for another year, I have no reason to think Mangini wouldn't be able to work with that - he didn't have absolute power in NY and he didn't mandate that he have absolute power when Lerner hired him here. If the new guy(s) don't want Mangini as HC, he'll be gone. But it'll be their decision, and their decision alone. Not Mangini's.

Beat the stillers, live to rock another day. End of discussion.

I went into the season thinking rebuild, which is exactly what he delivered. Not a half-ass rebuild, but a full blown down to the studs demo. It wasn't pretty, but it had to be done and he had the nuts to do it.

I can't believe people expected better than this. Sure, you hope for better, but did you really expect it?

I keep him, but I doubt it's gonna happen.

I would fire his ass as my first move. As soon as I signed the contract I would call him up let him know he is fired tell him don't bother coming in we will drop his stuff off at his domicile. Yes I absolutely can't stand the guy. Every time I see him strolling the sidelines it grates on me worse than fingernails on a chalkboard.

My main basis for firing him. He is does not have the personality I want associated with any organization I would run. He is a dishonest, excuse making, alienating personality, sketchy, cocky asshole. Seriously accusing Lions players of faking injuries when it was clear he was out coached?

He expects to have some say in who his future boss will be? Is he really that arrogant that he thinks he needs to have a say in his boss? I wouldn't expect that. Why should he?

Plus his questionable character has already caused who knows how many injuries on this team. Plus he already screwed us over for the next two years with terrible trades and horrible draft picks.

There are many other reasons I would fire his ass but You wouldn't read it and I don't feel like typing it out.

I am also the biggest Erica Mangina detractor possibly in the world.

Wait three more games. Then let's re-vote.

Nah I say we let him finish off the season then can his ass.

Draft Gerald McCoy, and start him as a DE, with A. Rubin at NT and Shaun Rogers at the other DE.

The Browns need to playmaking LBs. They probably can only get one this off season. I would take the pass rushing OLB to offset Kameron Wimbley.

The defense needs a very good CB to go with Eric Wright. The secondary needs one or two safeties. Again, can Brodney Pool come back in 2010. The defense could use more, but, with these alignments and additions, there should be some quality backup players on the defense.

A new and highly successful and NFL experienced offensive coordinator. The good to very good fix at the RG and RT.

Again, the RB and #1 WR are required as well as another TE. How much can be acquired is open to discussion.

If and when Mangini or any other HC has a full compliment of starting players, he has a chance of success. Mangini was playing cards (poker) without all 52 cards. It is hard to be competitive in any poker game without the use of all the aces, kings and queens. If he has the players, it will be easier to judge just what kind of head coach he is.

He did do the dirty work in the 2009 season. He helped to fix the cap and got additional draft choices. His life was hell this year. He does deserve a true shot as the Browns head coach. He could be a very good coach, if he only had to do the work of a head coach.

The two previous rebuilds appeared more like three year projects just to get to a fair team. When Butch Davis got done with his third year, there was not much of a team for the long term.

When Phil Savage and Crennel got into the fourth year, there was no championship run. The smoke cleared and the mirrors were broken. They was not much of a roster after a few key players.

So not much was accomplished of adding a few and getting rid of a few.

Did Mangini have a master stroke and strip the team of the old culture and attitude? One great draft and some good free agent additions can transform the 2008 roster into a significantly different 2010 roster. When the Czar is hired, no matter who the GM and HC. The input of talent to the 2010 roster will provide needed speed and energy. I am looking forward to this off season and the 2010 season.

He's going nowhere IMO. After listening to him speak on the radio last night, it would appear he has some security at least for next season. You need to give him one more year to see what can be done to improve the talent pool. They weren't going to win this division and get anywhere near the post-season, just want them to finish strong and give people a "gleam" for next year, which really seems to be what Mangini is striving for (with multiple draft picks and cap room).

Didn't holmgren give an interview saying something along the lines of "a coach needs more than a year to evaulate him"..earlier this year?

If I was holmgren, I'd strip Mangini of his GM duties, and say you'd work with him, but He's got a year to prove he can coach under me, He doesn't have to get a playoff game or anything like that, he just has to keep making the Browns looked improved.

His quote was in conversation about Jim Mora Jr. He followed it up immediately with a caveat that sometimes a move would have to be made.

I'm on record saying he gets a another year if they beat Pittsburgh. Soooooo, the Brown & Orange colored glasses say he gets one more.

Brain says fire him yesterday.

Interesting quote.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4747909

Gotta give him at least one more year. Even Jesus himself wouldn't be able to win with this roster.

Refresh my memory...didn't Mangini put together most of this roster?

No, Kokinis did.

You don't fire a coach because he was a shitty GM.

Sincerely,

Butch Davis & Mike Shanahan

You fire him because he was either too arrogant or too stupid to see that he is a shitty GM. From what he's been saying in the media, do you think he has become humbled, or is it a case of "saying the right thing", even if he doesn't mean it?

I don't think it matters if he means it or not. He has no choice in the matter. They are going to hire someone above him. He cannot stop that train. So he either steps into line with that guy or he is gone.

I don't want a humble head coach. I want one who thinks he is right all of the time. I would also like him to actually be right most of the time, but being humble is being a puppet, IMO.

I hope the two can co-exist, and that Mangini can be himself. If he disagrees, than I would hope he is free to disagree, but the Czar has final say, but there should be a structured involvement from all employees on matters they are assigned or responsible for.

The worst scenario, would be for Mangini to cower and just go with the flow. If these two end up agreeing on everything, than one of them isn't needed.

I think Mangini knows his football, and can coach. I believe he needs assistance in hiring assistants, dealing with agents, and the acquisition of talent. I do think he handles the field side of it well, and I also think his philosophy is excellent, and will work if given time. I think he is the right one, if he can accept less food on his plate.

Okay, I guess Jesus would have traded DA in the offseason and drafted anyone other than Robiski in the second round, but Jesus' team is still sitting at 4 wins at best right now.

Which is of course what you and everyone else said after the 2007 draft.



Myth: you had to take it down to ubersuck to build a winner in the NFL.

How do you build a winner? You just get about to building the winner.

Now I will give credence to the need for a cultural enema in both of he most recent changes, and that happened to coincide with purging the most "talented" players on the team, who also not coincidentally underproduced. But that in no way means you must lose at a horrendous level to win. On the contrary, there is evidence to suggest this approiachsimply caps you out with overpaid rookies who have no role models nor base upon which to turn the team around, and you are stuck in perpetual suckage.

In other words, drafting Robiske and Veikune and letting an injured draft pick get plundered were not some form a master strategy to win in 2012. They were mistakes, and I submit prima facia logic that errors do not help you improve based upon that error. Perhaps from an experiential perspective for hr future if analysis and reflection changes the model for receating the error (such as mangini shouldn't run the draft) , but not from he standpoint that an error perpeuated the poor record and not filling spots at LBer and WR and as if opportunity cost equate to gain. Any other interpritation is nonsense.

The reasons for epic fail is they couldn't acquire enough good players to fit their systems in the time alotted. It had nothing to do with making sure the elevator went down to sub-sub-sub basement and everything to do with whether a good GM and good coach just build on what they have and turn around a franchise given a fair shake.

Humble? No.

Reasonable and able to take input without believing he is the Pope of football?

Able to have blind loyalty or hubris swayed with logic so that he can change and improve?

Absolutely.

If not, get the fuck out.

I'm still unsure of who the real Eric Mangini is. Too many conflicting reports. But I dismiss the cartoon character generalizations.

I made this poll right after the Steeler win because I wanted to see how much that meant to us as a fan base.

Mangini has three more games to build a better case to convince The Man that he should get another year. For argument's sake, let's say we win 2 of the remaining 3, to go 4-12 on the year.

The question then becomes, are we better and are we on the upswing because of Mangini?

1. We've gone from one of the most penalized to least penalized.
2. We got rid of two overpaid, underperforming and embarrassing attitude problems.
3. There is a lot of cap room, and a boatload of draft picks to work with.
4. We beat the Steelers.
5. He brought in a great ST coordinator, and a great D coordinator.
6. QB play appears to have improved significantly.


These last three games are far more important as a gauge of where The Process is headed than moving us down a couple slots in the draft.

Ironic that Lerner reportedly decided to not hire Pioli because he advised a near total teardown of this team, but hired Mangini who went ahead and did it anyway.

Red, all of this matters, and yet it doesn't.

Mangini has positioned the team to improve in many ways, I agree. That has been done.

Question: Did we NEED to be 2 - 11 to do that?

Now the only question that matters is whether he's the right guy to do the build?

If his player acquisition record doesn't scare the piss out of you, then you're not paying attention.


(But I know you are.)

JB "Now the only question that matters is whether he's the right guy to do the build?"


You nailed it. But no one hits on ALL of their draft picks. Drafting Robo and Viekune were epic misses - so far. Phil Loadholt should be wearing Seal Brown and Orange right now, but all that's hindsight.

Yet, have you noticed who the starting ILBs have been the last couple of weeks, and that they have been doing a great job stopping the run? Trusnik and Bowens. Two guys that were considered filler material - but their versatility and understanding of the 3-4 might help prevent our last 8 games to be even worse than our first 8. Both look like keepers, and Trusnik still has Mike Vrabel upside. Bowens is the kind of backup we never had under previous regimes, and that's a plus in Mangini's column IMO.

Question - how much of the player procurement failings are on Kokinis? Was Mangini counting on him to put together some good reports and be able to give Mangini a small list of options, but was doing a shitty job of it?

I get the impression that Mangini was counting on Kokinis to do most of the personnel evaluation, contracts and legwork but he couldn't handle it.

Right now, I'd say that Mangini MUST have a GM type to oversee player personnel issues, and that has the final word on these decisions. I have no doubt that Mangini will lobby hard for certain positions and probably certain players, but I view that as a good thing.

My preferred model right now is Holmgren, Tuna, Czar > Smart yet open-minded GM > Mangini.

My numero uno reason to keep Mangini is that I'm afraid we lose Seeley and Ryan along with him. These two guys have done a good job with the talent provided. I'm 50/50 on Daboll, but have seen some good things from him the last few weeks and want to see what we do the next 3 to analyze his development.

Lerner has made no promises beyond this season as far as if Mangini will get another year or not. Earlier in the season Lerner said that Mangini will be the coach of the Browns in 2010. The Browns host the Jaquars in the last game of their season on January 3rd, 2010.

Red, I concur with much, but n a chracteristically crappy way kept only the two "u gotta be kidin me" takes.

Mike Vrable. The Ohio State University. Third round pick. Failed 3 - 4 DE (not enough sand in the britches.) Conversion project from balanced college 4 - 3 DE who was a parade AA in HS at WJ.

Jason "Who" TRusnick. D 3 pay-to-play at Ohio Northern. Did i mention nice pharmacy school?

Kid did an amazing job fighting for a Sunday paycheck as a STer. Now punch yourself. Ny-Quel will be bcak and maybe Bpowens stays as healy ILB for another season. Need a long-term solution.

Kokinas? In charge? Of anything. Seriously my good breoham. Go back and read the post mortim pieces. Guy got bobbitted as soon s he got in the door. Got frustrated an tried to put feeles out for a new gig. Make Col Klink look like a mover and shaker.

I agree with all 6 of your points.
I also agree with a previous poster that this team didn't need cosmetic changes to the roster, it needed a full blown down to the studs rebuild. Look at where this team was 12 months ago. They were an embarrassment. They had flat out quit on Romeo. Look at the guys Eric brought in. They are significant contributors to what should be a nice start to 2010.
We have parlayed our malcontents into 11 picks in a very deep draft. The key is to "hit" on the majority of those picks.
If you fire him after him the deconstruction that needed to be done, and not give "his system" a chance to work with quality players - what message does that send to any credible candidates that may replace him? Not a good one.

It just makes good business sense to not keep blowing your plan up every five years. It makes for good morale in the building to know efforts are rewarded.
As long as continual progress is being made, I'd say Eric deserves a fighting chance. Hope the new GM/czar sees it that way as well.