Were you even alive in '87? '82?

I'll type slowly. Those were player strikes

What may happen in 2011 is an owner lockout

BTW - so what's your point? Do you agree that a work stoppage, even if you are unaware of who may be stopping it, may have an impact on Holmgren's decision to keep Mangini?

1987.... Jeff Christensen. That guy was a solid scab QB

we made the playoffs both those strike years..............

My favorite scab QB was Gary Danielson. Took one for the team so BK didn't need to sully his rep.

Ugh, no, I don't understand why that should matter

I was just saying, Normally when it comes to Work Stoppage, I would think the Owners would just use Scabs?

I guess you slept thru Civics class at St. Ignatius?

Didn't have Civics down in the boonies of Stark Co. Got stuck taking "Government".

There is a very big difference between a guy who set the NCAA record for completion % (young) in a NON WCO, struggling on some of the shittiest teams of all time in the NFL and a guy who was known throughout his entire collegiate career as an inaccurate QB (Quinn) continuing those struggles in the NFL. It isn't baseless, but it isn't the end all be all either.

Favre threw all of 4 passes in his rookie year, and was ridiculed for partying like it was 1999 in ATL, NOT because of any accuracy problem, and thus has absolutely no bearing on the conversation. Favre was always a QB with incredible amounts of talent, much much more than was ever, IMO, seen in Quinn.

mattvan1 wrote:

Peeker643 wrote:

mattvan1 wrote:

Were you even alive in '87? '82?

I'll type slowly. Those were player strikes

What may happen in 2011 is an owner lockout

BTW - so what's your point? Do you agree that a work stoppage, even if you are unaware of who may be stopping it, may have an impact on Holmgren's decision to keep Mangini?

1987.... Jeff Christensen. That guy was a solid scab QB

we made the playoffs both those strike years..............

My favorite scab QB was Gary Danielson. Took one for the team so BK didn't need to sully his rep.

Gratuitous plug:
http://www.theclevelandfan.com/article_ ... blgId=5038

You're on your way to usurping FUDU as 'Guy who will say it's night time if you say it's day time'.

You'll note I never mentioned Favre. You'll also note that I'm not saying there's any guarantees with Quinn. What I'm saying is it's unfair to project/compare a guy who's been jerked around in a shitty system with multiple shitty coordinators and who has shitty talent around him with HoF guys who operated under the proper tutelage with great talent around them.

If you want to judge Quinn's WCO accuracy then you should see him operate in it. Not assume that he's too inaccurate to run it.

The guy completed 65% of his throws as a junior at ND and 62% as a senior.

Carry on...

Agreeing with people is not usually what inspires me to post....if its said and I agree, no need to piggyback 90% of the time.

I know you didn't mention Favre, that was really directed at JB, I have to watch it with the quotes....

But you see what I am saying is that he is not very accurate period. I realize the hypocracy in quoting Youngs completion % as a data point to his accuracy while dismissing Quinns, but talk to ND fans. As long as your aren't a dick about it (he's not Mike Vick in the Dept) they will tell you that honestly the guy was simply never an accurate QB. Do you remember some of the catches his recievers made for him those last two years?

I can tell you I watched alot of those games because they played most of them on AFN when I was in the military, and I lots of throws in the dirt, lots of long passes that were very duck-like, and alot of very commendable plays by his WR's.

I will say I thought Brady was a very good college QB. But being accurate was simply never one of his strengths.

I have brought this up before, but i think it is noteworthy:
The day Quinn fell to the Browns in the draft, the NFL Network analyst
showed very clear footage of him throwing in college. The inaccuracy problems, he illustrated, stemmed from Quinn lifting his back foot before releasing the ball as he stepped forward. Too many moving parts while throwing. I suspect this problem has never been coached away.

And that's an issue that needs to be addressed.

When we talked to Mike Pagel a year ago he said the same thing regarding DA nad Quinn: That they needed some proper instruction to correct some fundamental mechanics and they had yet to receive it.

That's part of what I'm talking about in regard to laying waste to a 3rd year pro who hasn't been instructed properly and has zero talent around him.

He may turn out to be a hump. But you should probably invest some time and attention and see him in the WCO before cutting ties.

That's a fair point, however, aren't ALL problems with accuracy stemming from fundamental mechanics?

I think that question has to be answered first. Second, he was coached by Charlie Weis and his staff, who if nothing else was a experianced professional coach, who I doubt would be missing simple fundamental issues with his quarterback who he sees iin practice every singe day that a TV analyst noticed from some highlight film.

There comes a point, it would seem, that certain things/habbits are just here to stay. I believe that 99% of the time, if a QB was not accurate coming out of college he ins't likely to get significantly better in the Pro's. I'm sure there are exceptions, there always are.

To be clear, I'm not sitting here saying Quinn is a bum and needs to be canned....I am saying I think he doesn't really have the skills to be a great WC QB. Obviously I certainly don't know enough to make an NFL roster decision on the matter. I'm just talking here.

How can an NFL team scout a seemingly coachable QB who has some nice intangibles eg. command of the huddle, etc., trade up to draft him knowing the general knock on him is inaccuracy due to issuess with fundamentals, and not correct them?

Rhetorical question - but I mean, c'mon.

edit: JCoz, point taken

Farve had a drinking/chemical problem(s) and Young didn't come in with an accuracy knock and play for three years without improving his accuracy issue.

To claim that rookie or young QBs struggle is one thing but to compare an endemic accuracy issue that a prospect came into the league with that he hasn't been able to overcome with two guys will are and will be in the Pro Bowl would be absurd except their coach is now our czar and he's going to compare Quinn with Young and Farve and Montana and Hassleback and he's going to look at Quinn very objectively, not with home town bias or ND fan influence, jes bidnezz.

A WR who can't catch is an ongoing problem. A QB with accuracy issues is an ongoing problem. Holmgren hasn't had to deal with QBs who had ongoing accuracy issues.

Yogi doesn't know what Holmgren will decide on Quinn and neither do I but I sure know he hasn't had gone with any QBs in the past who had an ongoing accuracy issue and I've seen enough of Quinn's accuracy to know that he HAS AN ONGOING ACCURACY ISSUE. No one is going to tell me otherwise. He's not accurate, he isn't.

Holmgren can go back to ND tapes and he'll see this is an ongoing issue.

Holmgren certainly knows how to pick QBs so I'm more than happy that he is the guy making the call on whether or not he can fix Quinn's accuracy problems but I believe he's looking in another direction.

And props to Red doing the homework on the draft picks that were used to trade for Steve Young and Matt Hassleback.

The part in Bold we can agree on. The rest is your opinion cause you cant know at this point.

I think Quinn has accuracy issues and never denied that. Can he improve? Has MH seen these problems before and helped to fix it?

Also maybe with all the other intangible qualities Quinn brings to the table, he doesnt need to be as accurate as others that have been successful running the WCO.

But we will start finding out in a few weeks.

Agreed. At least someone with a track record will be looking at him and making the call. I'm fine with eliminating whatever doubts exists regardless of what the outcome is.

Just don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water without ever knowing.

I think we are going to find out pretty damn quick. I personally don't subscribe to the MH improving QB accuracy at all, BUT I think if MH keeps him or doesn't bring in someone else, it says he thinks he is accurate ENOUGH. JMO.

But yogi, what other host of intangables does Quinn have that are strong enough to make up for accuracy issues? I am really not seeing anything at all in that dept other than the fact that he doesn't look like a complete goofy doofus walking in and out of the huddle.... and that isn't going to get you a cup of coffee let alone a long term starting gig in the NFL.

I guess it really doesn't matter, we all seem to agree that MH is more than capable of making the best decision there.

But sheesh, I'm not even near being a Quinn hater and I think we must be worlds apart on just what he brings to the table.

Perhaps I mis-remember, but wasn't the real knock on Quinn his performance in big games against good defenses who brought pressure? Kinda like you see every week in the NFL?

His completion percentage (one measure of accuracy) was fine at ND. Not Colt McCoy-like, but in the high 50's. Good enough. Except against elite teams. I don't think the NFL game has slowed down for him at this point. Everything is always too quick, too hurried. Tough call on how long you wait until you pull the plug on the BQ Experiment.

BTW, I'll lay a big old turd in the mechanics punchbowl. These guys aren't major league pitchers, worried about release points and arm slots and hitting a coffee cup sized spot at 95mph. Yes, footwork and grip and ball position are all important. But at the end of the day, accuracy is an innate ability to judge speed and distance and place the ball within a rather large window so that your guy can make a play. It's knowing the system and trusting your reads and having faith that when you put the ball up your guy will go get it.

None of our QBs have that luxury at this point.

No, he was always known as an inaccurate passer. In addition was the point you bring up and he also was said to have questionable arm strength (I think he has at least shown adequate arm strength though)




I think you bring up some other important aspects of being accurate but knowing where you want to throw it means dick if you can't get it there, particularly under fire, which is where those mechanics come into play for most QB's. I think the way you are describing it is like a drill, without 275lb monsters running around trying to injure them.

IMO, unless you have an arm like Favre or Elway, all the right mechanics need to be there when you decide you want to throw an accurate pass. When a QB is throwing a pass under 25yards, its not very confusing for a QB to time a route to hit a WR. But under fire most mediocre QB's throw thier mechanics right out the window.

There are exceptions to the 'strong arm or proper mechanics' argument:

But see there? Kosar's back foot is...

nm

His poor foot work was ambidextrous:

I think I acknowledged the exceptions to every rule.

Let me just say that I hope with everything I have that I am dead wrong and the Browns figure that out and stick with em.

That is the least costly and least time consuming solution for the team.

I'm all for that.

Be a fucking MVP Brady! The best WC QB there ever was!

Please?!..........

If a guy with QB credentials like MH looks at BQ and says, not good enough, Im gonna be fine with that.

It was just that when that guy was Mangini evaluating BQ in Duball's O and not utilizing the strengths and assets that Quinn can bring, well, I wasnt fine with that. I could just see Quinn getting released or tarded for a package of ace bandages and coming into his own in an offense suited to his game.

Again, we'll see.

Deep breath Coz, deep breath.

Is it possible that mechanics influence accuracy? Can that be coached?

Camn being a spazz influence accuracy? Is that correctable? I don't know in Quinn's case. But he' so wired he's not executing this season.

I don't know in BQ's case.

I do see what his NCAA completion % was IN A NON WCO offense.


http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=150329

> 60% comp % over 2 seasons? Ungodly TD : INT ratio ? Inaccurate? NFW statistically. On the deep ball? Some cited it. I know Wilcots was appoplectic.

I also know that Young set that record playing the older cousin of Mumme-ball in Provo. It inflated everyone's stats there. Salt grains.

I also know that his Browns O has been pretty shitty itself, the equal of worse of the mid 80's Bucs.

My bottom line?

The icons Bob cites didn't start off that way. They strugled early on.

Does it man Quinn will progress like them?

Probably not.

Does it mean he can't progress at all either and is a finished product?

Most assuredly I believe, probaly not as well.

Keep reading JB, I know the salt grains and I know Brady completion %'s. It's been covered.

Yogi,

I'm not throwing jabs but I didn't just state my opinion.

I certainly didn't put words in Holmgren's mouth when he said he didn't know if he had the QB to run his offense or when he said that he would make a move if he didn't have that guy. It wasn't my opinion but the words direct from the mouth of Holmgren that were non-commital about Mangini and BQ/DA. So if you think he would let them dangle by making statements about possibly making moves to replace them then why do you think he would do that unless he really isn't confident in their future with the club?

The words of MH and by his history.

Mike Holmgren is going to put everyone under the scope but he's going to use an elecrontic microscope to pick apart his QB and he's going to decide whether or not he has a guy capable of running his offense. If MH had made encouraging statements about Quinn fitting his system or if his history was taking guys who were inaccurate and turning them around in his system then I'd say you had more than your opinion but I haven't heard those words from MH or seen that history from him. I've heard and seen the opposite so that is what I based my take on.

As I said I'm more than happy to have Holmgren in charge since he has been succcessful in the past installing the WCO and he has been aces in choosing the right guy to QB his teams.

We'll find out in time how things shake out so peace and let me be the first to wish you a Happy New Year because we've run the course on this topic.

The issue on the Bernie pic was meant as a tongue-in-cheek note to state mechanics don't always equate to accuracy. You can google BQ's draft profile and get reports going back to his senior year that cite the strength of his mechanics and that still cite accuracy as an issue.

I think comfort and confidence in a legit offense w/legit backs and receivers is just as big.

But either way we're going to find out in the next year and at least now we're confident that the man making the call has the CV to do it.

Exceptions to the rule Peek, nothing more, nothing less. Was bernie playing in a WCO?

Regardless we will find out what Holmgren thinks much sooner than that. I think we'll know after the Draft at the latest.

Infante was close. He preferred the 5 step drop package but did run his passing game out of the bunch formation a high percentage of time like the 49ers did with Rice and the Vikings with Carter. He attacked horizontally and vertically. No, it was not the prototypical WCO but it was a predecessor of it and contained many of the same elements.

That has nothing to do with Kosar though. I agree he was a freak as far as mechanics/accuracy.

Seems like the whole problem is solved.

Go get all of those ND receivers that made so many spectacular catches to take an inaccurate hump like Quinn into a 60+% passer.

How hard could it be to pry Jeff Smjazardianehfnsrfof and his 5ERA away from the Cubs?

SD:

Its more than that Yogi , Steve Young took pains to explain the intricacies of the WCO where every step your looking at a particular read as you backpedal , its designed to release the ball with an accurate pass as your back foot hits the ground with either a three step or a five step drop .

Which leaves both DA and the mechanically flawed Quinn both at a decided disadvantage vs all those other prospects who can both walk and chew bubble gum simultaneously.

This ain't Joe Capp redux or even Billy Kilmer for that matter so both these two slobs will fair poorly if Holmgren bothers with em at all.

Its not just about throwing short passes its timing footwork accuracy and acumen .


SoulDawg


SoulDawg

As long as he gets to run routes against Purdue's secondary, I think you're onto something.

Ding ding ding!...dont forget to include Michigan State, the service academys....etc, etc...

Quinns games against every top 50 defense he ever played against (and there were VERY FEW, IIRC) was forgettable.

If we forget about "the push heard round the world".

And never forget, in th words of the ole ball coach, you can't spell "Citrus" without "UT" .

What, did you forget that that USC defense was terrible?

No fucking chance in the world that was a top 50 defense. Try again. That was the worst defense Carroll ever fielded.

That's why it was always a joke when the turds at ESPN were calling it the greatest team of all time.

EDIT: Went back and got the numbers. 48th in total defense, 73rd in pass D.

So IOW it was a top 50 D and an instant classic vs a team that lost B2B titles by a Vince Young eyelash?

Hey, I am ALL for recognizing BQ's limitations. I am warming up to drafting Colt McCoy or someone if they are still there at 2, which I think they will fall to as people wake up to the fact that this is the worst QB class in a long while. But there's just no need to down-hype BQ.

He's still what he is: a developing prospect not playing well whose never been in a stable situation with a good team.

If his knocks and issues were so profound, he wpouldn't have been a number one pick.

Amazing! You guys convinced me!

What a fool anyone was if they ever thought Quinn had a morsel of football talent and the nerve of him to try and disguise himself as an NFL quality QB!




The great thing for those with that wonderful eye for talent is that Holmgren is probably looking for new scouts and some of those on this board would make great scouts!

Carry on with the Quinn slamfest cause afterall a little balance to any arguement would be a bad thing.

Look, LIke I've said in this thread, I want Brady to be a good QB, I really do. I also do not want to draft a QB. My dislike of Brady is overstated in this thread. I was simply making a smart assed response to another smart ass comment.

You responded by quoting a terrible defense as some proof of Brady doing well against a good defense, and you were completely wrong. Talking about the USC team from 04 and talking about the overall success of the 05 USC team does.......not........change the fact that it was a shitty defense. 48th makes it better than 51st? Really JB? That was weak. Brady quinn is a quarterback, you know the ones that throw the ball. And in that respect USC was one of the worst defenses in ALL of college football....73rd of 112

That's all I was commenting to, your error in citing USC as proof Brady ever had a good game against a GOOD defense.

And this - "If his knocks and issues were so profound, he wouldn't have been a number one pick".......really? does that mean flaws of QB drafted in the 1st round are never ignored? No one ever over looks things and makes massive mistakes?

My issues are that Brady is not accurate and he has never had a good game against a top flight defense, not in college and not in limited work in the pros.

In the end I've been in this thread way too long, the shit was dead at the agreement that the Walrus gets to decide and everyone is cool with that. I really just dont hate Brady the player NEARLY enough to sit here and knock him anymore. I don't need to keep repeating the same couple things.

One of the top 5 QBs in this draft class will be there in the second round.

If Claussen, Locker and Bradford are gone, take your pick of the next two and likely both of them will be there in the second. There's a 50/50 chance that one of the three are there as well. McCoy, Pike, etc...

As much as Holmgren's MO is to get a new QB, its not to draft one high in the first round. To my knowledge, he has NEVER taken a first round QB.

There's your precedence.

SD:

Its no precedence at all

Holmgrens teams weren't picking in the top five , which is very different than where the Browns will be picking and the cap consequences related to picks players and misses so high in the draft.

When you have contract guarantees which exceed twenty million dollars or more , theeeeeeeee most important position in football takes on a new light , especially when yours is manned with dumb and dumber.

Personally I'd luv to see him tag a top tier defensive playmaker then follow up with a QB in the second like Pike or Daryll Clark.

McCoy Bradford and Clausen should be long gone before then.

SoulDawg

Red, by the time it all shakes down, there may be only two QB's that go in round one.

Coz, I'm just saying you keep moving the target, bro.

First it is he never played well vs a good opponant.

So I cite a near dynastic team that ND almost beat.

Now it's "he never played well vs a top 50 defense".

So I point out that yourself mentioned USC's D was in the top 50 .

Now you discount that and change the criteria.

I agree this is all a huge red herring, though.

All I'm sticking to is he had some damn good college stats - even as they relate to accuracy, had a damn good college career, and was a concensus number one NFL pick. He just didn't have the black marks on his scouting record that the revision hata hype is harping on now. Like every other NFL prospect who has ever come out (except maybe Courtney Brown) , he has pros, he had cons, and he was evaluated. But in no way was he Sperg Wynn taken 22nd overall.

Quinn is struggling. To mitigate that much is indefensible. But I've never seen a market so impatient when it coimes to QB development, esp when surrounded by shitty players. It's comical to me by now how the QB leraning curve is completely ignored by many Browns' fans..

JB, I just threw out the top 50 D as an random number, you and I both understand that the point is that USC was every bit as shitty a D as the service academies and Michigan St. And he ABSOLUTELY had every damn bit of this "hata hype" at draft time. To state otherwise is clearly revisionist history. Brady Quinn had MASS WARTS during draft week, don't misrepresent......

That being said, the CONCLUSIONS we have are similar. I am cool with going into this season with Quinn at QB, thus, I am fully willing to watch him prove or disprove his QB skills next season. I actually am willing to be very very patient with the kid. I want the picks spent elsewhere.

SD:

Then you two dumbells should get a room and sing koombye ya to each other while rubbing oil and fuckin each other with your Quinn Dolls.

Anybody who would go into next year without upgrading that position when we have 11 picks plus free agency in lieu of a rat tailed Domer Frog who ain't played 6 games in a row and stayed healthy let alone finished a season worth repeating is a stone whack numbnut .

Holmgren will waddle his fat ass under center before he lets his dream job get burned down around hia ankles like that.

Just Stop it with the Dumb Shit

Pretty Mutha fuckin Puhleeeze

SoulDawg

Exactly.

Unless the Walrus gets a serious case of Wood over someone on the board in the first, his MO has been to take a QB he likes in the middle rounds and develop him. MAYBE he loves Pike or Clark and shoots a second on him. Got no problem with that.

His other MO has been to raid a backup from another team, but he - just - might - think Quinn has enough potential to get a good QB coach in and develop him as a WCO type of guy. He's not real accurate with a bad WR corps and a barely NFL running game. The 1 mill question is "Can he be?"

Holmgren is exactly the type of guy to answer that question, and for that reason is the best hire we could have made as Czar.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing
10th in rushing yards with an average that places them at 17th, firmly in the fat part of the curve.

Anyone who understands statistics knows that Harrison's last two games have skewed their season ranking significantly. Especially his KC game.

An important note is that Cribbs' rushing yards are almost entirely out of wildcat, which takes absolutely no pressure off the QB when he is under center.

RUSHING YARDS IN GAMES QUINN STARTED:
Week 1 - J. Lewis 57, Cribbs 6, Davis 5. TOTAL = 68 (62 from RBs)
Week 2 - J. Lewis 38, Harrison 8, Cribbs 4 TOTAL = 50 (46 from RBs)
Week 3 - Harrison 52, Davis 10 TOTAL = 62
Week 10 - J. Lewis 36, Cribbs 34, Jennings 18 TOTAL = 88 (54 from RBs)
Week 11- J. Lewis 75, Jennings 36, Cribbs 16 TOTAL = 127 (111 from RBs)
Week 12- J. Lewis 40, Jennings 5, Harrison 3 TOTAL = 48
Week 13- Cribbs 38, Harrison 35, Jennings 28 TOTAL = 101 (63 from RBs)

Then it explodes.

Week 14 - Cribbs 87, Jennings 73, Harrison 9 TOTAL = 169 (82 from RBs)
Week 15 - Harrison 286, Jennings 18 TOTAL = 304




In a statistical analysis, an extremely aberrant data point like the KC game is frequently thrown out in the interests of accuracy. Maybe a math guy can jump in here, but that game is so far off the average - someone talk about standard deviations or something!

I stand by my statement, but amend it to "most of the year, Quinn had a barely NFL quality rushing attack behind him." The only game beside KC where the RBs had 100 yards was Detroit, and Quinn had an oustanding game with a 20/33 for 304, 4 TDs and no INTs. Important to note that Quinn sucked against KC though.

This really points out how BAD Jamal Lewis was, and how playing him really hurt our offensive production. Would like to see what it would have looked like this year if Harrison had been the starter out of camp...